Teching / Engine Claims/ Dyno's
Just a follow up on the "locked" thread on engines.
I've been bashed on here before about sharing what we do @ SW Modlites here in Az, but we've been dealing with all the mentioned stuff for years.
We run stock engines. We have a Pre-Season Tech day and where we check engines and then seal them.
Engine Claims- We have one and used it once.But because it was in our "Chase" with only a couple races left,(and it was the current point leader's car) we decided to NOT claim the engine-but take it to a local Dyno (along with 2 other 07 GSXR's) and compare the #'s. All 3 cars put out 160 RWHP and change-Argument solved.
Engine Protest- Now we have a protest option for a driver being claimed. He can choose the protest option, and we will take his car (that night) and 2 other cars (as test mules)-Dyno all 3.
The protested car must dyno at no more than 3% (aprox 5hp) of the avg, of the other 2 cars dyno #'s
example-2 test cars Dyno 160 hp-The protested car can only be 164.8 or 165 hp or less to be legal.
Not saying we're perfect-but just sharing what we do.
It takes a little more effort by club officials( pre-race tech,dyno's,etc...), but speeds up post race tech quite a bit.
Trouble is not every club has access to a dyno for our cars. It would be nice if someone could maybe develop a portable cost effective dyno system for our cars that maybe clubs could get for local purposes for the testing you are describing.
Tony, Sounds reasonable. In your experience is there a difference from a tired motor to a fresh motor?
Actually a couple seasons back, we dynoed 2 - 04 GSXR's
1- Had 3 Full seasons on it, with maybe the valves adj. maybe once in those 3 years
1- Was supposed to be a 600 mile engine that had a partial season, and was owned by a motorcycle guy that owned his own bike shop
The Results- The 3 yr old engine was within about 3 hp of the "Fresh Low Mileage " engine.
This kinda proves that with a little maintenance a stock engine will last 3-4 seasons pretty easily, which in turn keeps the cost down. I agree with some post in the other thread, that stock engines are the way to go, for reliablity, good perf., and to help keep cost down....IMO
Originally Posted by tonym14
Have your rules always been stock? If not how did it affect car counts and the racing?
the motor rules always been stock, thats why we have over 40 cars in az in less then 5 yrs.
Very nice! So what are the negatives about the stock rule?
We've been running for three years under the stock rule and I've never once heard anyone complain about running stock motors, just the opposite actually, everyone loves it. Plus if you blow an engine, go on ebay & for under $2k(much less for CBR or ZX) you're running again that week. I could never figure out why everyone else doesn't run the stock engines, it just makes sense (except to the engine builders)
I agree with Bubbas race car-for us here in Az, most like the "stock" engine deal.
There is negative or two.
With everyone knowing we run stock engines, and a guy comes out and wins regularly-everyone complains "he can't be stock"..I'm guilty of that too, so it starts to create friction sometimes.
Knowing what/How we tech-leaves room for a guy to call an engine builder and tell'm what/how we tech, and gets him to build a "spec" or not factory "stock", to pick up that extra HP...then its on the group leaders to try and reign it all in. Sometimes people forget that this is supposed to be for fun, its an entry level division (to a degree), and usually the guys that are in charge of fixing the problem are volunteers, that don't like all the drama this can create.
All in all, I think the "Stock" Engines we run have added to the growth of our club/sport in Az.
I will admit that it was easier to START with Stock rules, then to go back and tell everyone they have to give up what they have already paid for-no easy answer...you just have to look at whats best for in the long run, and bear through the tough times...IMO
The stock engine rules have a ton of advantages. Yes some minor issues as well. Anything anybody comes up with has the same issues. I know I have heard rumors that even some of the "national" sanctioning bodies are considering the stock only option in the future. One issue with stock, if a driver happens to be a larger person, say they are giving up a 100lbs, with out adding any weight, they are at a distinct disadvantage. I'm not sure how this issue could be reasonably controlled, its still an issue of fairness. Yeah there are allot of solutions on paper that look great. I think those that fit into this catagory should be allowed to run a spec or a 1070 or........??????? Ya see, it can lead to a pandoras box type of deal. However, I do think that something can be done. I do stongly believe in an open gear rule and or a power commander type of device. Why? When you run these engines as hard as we are, and they get on the box a little at the end of the straights, they start to lean out, thats really hard them, obviously. Allowing gear changes would help and or a ignition device would as well. Yes, hard to police and can lead to issues, just a thought. Hopefully somebody can come up with something that can work out for everybody.
As far as the ECU claim. It works. PERIOD. I had my ECU claimed here last year, it was a 5 minute swamp, both cars ran just the same as they did before the swap.
As far as the dyno rule, It works. I got my engine claimed last year, yes, we went to the dyno and all was equal. Yes it has a few grey areas, not having access to a dyno, making sure the ignition switches are set as they were on the track, etc....etc.... As I said before, not every rule is going to be perfect. Just something that other clubs should consider trying to implement if they can.
Remember what rules are for. Sometimes they are to prevent stuff from occurring. and sometimes they are meant to catch things that are happening. They cant all do the same thing all the times.
A group or a club can have too many rules as well. It's a difficult decision to try to balance the right amount. In my opinion, match the best set of national rules that you can. It eliminates predjudice, bias and personal agendas. It also allows racers to be able to travel and experience racing with others and have some comfort in knowing that they are going to these races with the same stuff as the others. With that bieng said, sometimes a national set of rules may not work for all the local clubs and groups. I for one, would love to see us here in Az go to the full T-USA rules. However, that doesn't mean that it would be the best for the groups here. Remember, rules need to be what is best for the majority. It never fails, you can not make everybody happy. But remembering that if a club or group puts in too many rules that are type specific, just to them, it can cause issues as well.
Some rules need to be addressed with the future in mind as well. I believe that an engine rule, depending on the level, needs to be a specific set of time. I.e. a couple of years length. No body wants inconsistent rule changes year after year.
With all of that bieng said, I strongly believe, that they're has to be some creativity allowed. REMEMBER, these are modifieds. They are supposed to be kinda "outside the box" type of thinking as well.
All in all, I think everybody can learn from each others groups. There has to be give and take. There are allot of great ideas out there that we all can learn from.
JUST MY OPINION!
As a Modlite racer here in AZ, I feel VERY strongly about the stock engine rule.
About 4 years ago, my father and I decided to do something together for fun while we both could. He had raced Dwarf cars in the late 80's and early 90's and then raced several other classes throughout the years (incl factory stocks, late models, etc..) So we started searching for a cost effective class that took very little time to upkeep, as we own a small family business that takes pleanty time and effort. We started looking at larger classes including Xmods, factory stocks, etc... After looking at the amount of time, energy, and upkeep costs for over a year we decided we needed to look at something different, so we looked at where it started for my dad and that was dwarf cars.
Here in Arizona, there are several Dwarf Car clubs that have HUGE turnouts (this last weekend they had 40+). We decided this was a better avenue, so we met with several drivers, but the issue we had was their lack of technology (not using FI motors at the time mainly) I understand thier reasoning, and obviously they are doing something right due to their high car count, but again it just wasn't for me. Then we started looking in to Modlites. I spoke to several builders, drivers, as well as Tony Martin... after a short time, I ended up renting Andy Eatwell's car and just fell in love with Modlites... We "found our home" so the search was on for 2 cars. After looking for a few months, we purchased 1 used and 1 new Peter D and hit the track.
I know this is long winded but the point is, we spent 2 years looking for the right class that was competitive, reasonably cheap, and took little upkeep cost. I know for a fact we wouldn't have went with Modlites if they were running built motors... To know that the only thing seperating myself from the top drivers was skill and honetly effort. This made it comforting knowing I wasn't going to get beat because I didn't have the money, time, or energy to be competitive. Again, the stock motor thing here in AZ might not be perfect.. but I know for a fact it's pretty dang close... and the car count (40+ in the state) should show that if your club is hurting for car count, maybe it's time to look in the mirror and decide to change.
I've only been doing this for 2 years, and I usually keep to myself on here, but I do feel VERY strongly about the stock rule. I think it's time to build Modlites nationally as a whole, and work on keeping this a cost effective class... because if we don't, then we are no better than any other car class out there....
I'm still confused as to what a "spec motor" is. Is this another term for a "modified motor" ie: Ported, thin head gasket, sloted cam gears or any one of the formentioned?
Spec motor is stock bore and stroke with the following:
Aftermarket degreed cams
Thin head gasket or milled head instead
High Performance Oil Gear
Aftermarket Pistons and/or Rods
And whatever other secrets the builder don't tell you he does to it